Friday, December 08, 2006

Dr Grudem attacked - again

Over at Adrian Warnocks blog he is serialising an interview with Dr Wayne Grudem (currently at Pt 4), well worth a read.
As is sadly becoming the norm when Dr Grudem is featured anywhere the 'anti Grudem' brigade 'gird their loins' and start making their untrue accusations about Dr Grudem.
Much of what they call evidence is nothing of the sort, as becomes plain if you take the time to read up on their assertions.

When challenged and cornered it quickly devolves into a form of 'he's wrong because I say so' or they accuse Dr Grudem of being incompetent, a liar etc.
One character called Suzanne becomes so disconnected from reality that her comments on posts quickly become unrelated to the subject matter of the original post and/or become slanderous in a very unpleasent manner. This became so bad on the Between Two Worlds blog that Justin Taylor actually banned her from the blog. (only the second person ever and after much warning)

Peter Kirk is very opposed to Dr Grudem and what he writes and yet he admits in one of the comments on Adrians blog that he has never read one of Dr Grudems books. Oh, sorry, I believe he may have read a chapter, but it is not clear if it was the whole chapter or just part of it.
How he can dispute what Dr Grudem has written without even knowing what he has written is self evidently ridiculous.

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8 Comments:

Blogger Molly said...

Glenn, from an outsider's perspective, your own tone was disrespectful throughout the conversation over there, and this post does not "build up the Body," but rather tears down those you do not agree with--not in a way that works for their benefit, but in a way that appears to enjoy "gossipping" about them.

Being frustrated, disagreeing, etc, are all things that are human, but we are called to Love above all else. Paul tells us that it doesn't matter if one is "right" in his knowledge--if he has not Love, then he is nothing.


Respectfully,
Molly

12:46 am  
Blogger Glennsp said...

Molly, I'm sorry you perceived my post in that fashion, but I have to say there is nothing 'gossipy' about what I said.
I reported facts and I was not doing so behind closed doors.
I am accountable to others for what I wrote on Adrian's blog and I checked with them, they do not agree with your assessment.

I would hope you have been as quick to attempt to reprimand Suzanne for instance.

Also sometimes you need to tear down before you can rebuild. It is not a process from which I get any joy.

11:09 am  
Blogger Peter Kirk said...

Glenn, I have read parts of Grudem's books, and other material written by him. I'm not sure if I have read a whole chapter by him. I have never claimed otherwise. But in the material I have read I have found indisputable errors of fact, and errors of judgment which may be more disputable), and I have pointed out some of these errors on Adrian's blog and elsewhere.

I have not made generalised accusations about whole books of Dr Grudem's, like the attacks which you made on Adrian's blog on "RECOVERING BIBLICAL MINISTRY BY WOMEN, an Exegetical Response to Traditionalism and Feminism" by George and Dora Winston. You said of this book, "as soon as you dig into it it very quickly becomes apparent that it is not really that much different from so many other attempts to avoid Gods clear teaching in this whole area". I asked you on that blog whether you had actually read this book, and although you replied to the comment in which I asked that you did not answer this question. Perhaps you would like to answer it now. If you don't, I will be left with the suspicion that at the same time as you condemn me for criticising Grudem's books without reading them, you are doing the same with the Winstons' book.

By the way, I have not read the Winstons' book myself and so cannot comment on whether your criticisms are valid.

12:53 pm  
Blogger Glennsp said...

Peter, I wouldn't want you to go around carrying a suspicion.
Have I read the whole book, cover to cover? No.
Did I read enough to pass the judgement that I wrote? Oh, yes
On a more general note, are there ministries in the Church for women, of course and any real complimentarian will affirm that whole heartedly.
Authority over Gods Church, never.
Now, I can show you many passages where God's word makes it very clear that the leadership of His Church is to be male.
As I commented elsewhere, from Genesis to revelation the leadership structures that God implements are male whether it be the OT priesthood or NT Church
You show me passages of Scripture where God is clear about the inclusion of women in the leadership of His Church and I will concede.
I admit that that is possibly unfair as I know that such passages do not exist.

1:35 pm  
Blogger Philippa said...

Glenn, here is your latest post on Adrian's blog:

Suzanne,
No one is acknowledging that anything unpleasant was said to/about you.

All that is being acknowledged is that people here have disagreed with what you have said.

Your claims remain unsubstantiated and as such really should be retracted.


In the light of what you say in your post about Suzanne above, this is rich. You rubbish Suzanne's character on your blog and then reprimand the woman publicly on Adrian's blog because she protested that you didn't do her the courtesy of providing a direct link to what she actually said (so that your readers could make up their own minds)! This really doesn't look good.

David Warnock apologised publicly to Dr Grudem and Adrian for using intemperate language, and I'm very glad he did. Vehemently disagreeing with someone's ideas should not mean you attack them personally.

10:38 am  
Blogger Glennsp said...

Phillipa,
Every thing I said is true.
As in - does Suzanne go off topic = yes, often.
Has Suzanne been banned from Between Two Worlds = Yes, sadly she refused to heed ample warning about the slanderous nature of her comments.

I would also point out that I am 'rubbishing' her actions, not her character.

As with Molly above you seem very anxious to attack those pointing out some home truths about the actions of Suzanne (and others), but you are both notable for being absent in regard to calling Suzanne (and others) to account for her/their intemperate language, attitude, slanderous accusations etc.
You really need to demonstrate even handedness in your approach.

11:48 am  
Blogger Philippa said...

Glenn,

I am not here to discuss Suzanne's debating style nor for that matter to be her own personal spokesperson since I am sure she can fight her own battles. What I am addressing, specifically, is the last comment you made to her, which I found unfair.

I would also point out that I am 'rubbishing' her actions, not her character.

Hmm. Well, that's easy for all of us to say, isn't it, when we are criticising others?! To the person being criticised, it can all too easily feel like a personal attack ... something we should all bear in mind when posting on the internet. Including me, of course!

As with Molly above you seem very anxious to attack those pointing out some home truths about the actions of Suzanne (and others), but you are both notable for being absent in regard to calling Suzanne (and others) to account for her/their intemperate language, attitude, slanderous accusations etc.

I have often observed the ding-dongs between yourself, Suzanne and Peter Kirk and wished the three of you would pipe down and get off your own personal hobby horses. *grin* In between the flames, however, some interesting and cogent arguments have been made.

And it is not Suzanne who has slandered or attacked Dr Grudem personally - what she has taken issue with are his IDEAS. A very different thing! And that is what debate is all about.

You really need to demonstrate even handedness in your approach.

I have already given you proof of my even handedness. I expressed gratitude that the person who made an inappropriate comment about Dr Grudem has now apologised.

I was also impressed by Dr Grudem's gracious and measured response to the Steve Chalke/blasphemy controversy. I am glad he revised the use of the word 'blasphemy' about Chalke while making it clear his own theological position has not changed. That helped calm the waters considerably.

And on that note, I shall say no more except to wish you and your family a very happy Christmas and a peaceful New Year, full of the Lord's rich blessings. :)

Now back to wrapping presents!

8:10 pm  
Blogger Glennsp said...

As I said Phillipa, one sided approach.
You have ignored most of the points I made.
If, as you say, you are"not here to discuss Suzanne's debating style nor for that matter to be her own personal spokesperson then just what are you doing, apart from defending her and her actions??

You say you are referring to one point, yet that supposed one point was not in my post but in a comment I made above.

Rubbishing is not a term I would have actually used myself and I am sorry I should have made that clearer in my comment above. I only used it because you had.

You also say that Suzanne has not attacked Dr Grudem, but she has done on many occasions by calling into dispute his academic abilities.

The sort of thing I am referring to in my original post concerning Suzanne is this comment she left on Between Two Worlds blog ( and which was the final straw which got her banned)

"Oh, yes, I am talking about the wrong book. Absolutely. So sorry.

It was just too embarrassing for me to read his previous books. Seeing him take a swipe at egalitarians basic attributes re: masculinity and femininity. I'll take a pass on this one and bow out.

However, I notice that complementarianism is reinstating the concept of Christian slavery in the south. That should be an interesting 'path'."

I haven't got the hyper links thing sorted out yet, but if you want to check the veracity of the quote I cut and pasted above you can find it under a post titled " A New Path to Theological Liberalism?" dated 24 Oct 2006 on the above mentioned blog.

I stand by everything I have said here, including the one sided nature of your approach, but then no surprises there.

I will not be excepting any more comments for this post.

Happy Christmas one and all.

12:03 am  

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